What did happen in the headquarters of the Gestapo on the day and evening of 20 July, 1944 is far more interesting than anything that happened in Hitler’s headquarters or in the Bendlerstrasse where the plot was centered. A great deal has been written about both locales but nothing has been printed about the activity in the headquarters of the Gestapo.
Q There are still a number of unresolved matters, I suppose of a historical nature, that concern the attempt on Hitler’s life and since you were so intimately connected with the subsequent investigation, I would like to go into this with you if I may.
M Certainly. I think we have discussed much of this before, have we not?
Q Not this aspect. I talked about your opinions on various parties involved in the plot. This time I would like to be more specific, if I can. I’m sure you will grasp my reasons as I go on.
M By all means, let me grasp your reasons.
Q First of all, did you, as chief of the Gestapo, have any knowledge of this plot before it happened?
M Stauffenberg in specific?
Q Yes, the actual attempt.
M I knew about Stauffenberg but not as a man planning a bombing attempt.
Q And you knew about him how?
M As in intellectual anti-government type. Also, there was a file on his suspected sexual proclivities but nothing was done about either issue. I was not especially interested in people who were opposed to the government, and by that I mean Hitler, but those who plotted against it, or him. As far as homosexual charges against high military officers are concerned, I had some knowledge of the Fritsch business in 1938 and did not want to become involved in such business again.
Q If we may digress here for a moment. You mentioned Fritsch.
M Yes. Meisinger of my staff was involved with these charges, which I advised him to leave strictly alone. Meisinger was out of his depth with this subject.
Q And the charges of homosexuality against Fritsch were fabricated by the Gestapo, were they not?
M They were not. Fritsch was certainly involved with homosexuality at one time but the specific charges in 1938 were incorrect. They were not fake charges but pertained to another military officer, not the Commander of the Army. This was obvious to me at the time and I specifically ordered Meisinger to drop the matter. He thought to improve his career and took them to others who did not like Fritsch. Someone wanted his job...Goring to be specific...and Meisinger was willing to help. It was really a disgusting business and instead of furthering his career, Meisinger was shipped off to Japan. You know the rest. Do you wish to get back to the 20th of July now?
Q Yes. You knew nothing about the bomb attempt in advance, is that correct?
M Nothing at all. It was a very small group involved and the decision to set off the bomb was made shortly before. There was no time for the information to spread around and get to my ears.
Q So the attempt was a complete secret?
M Oh no, not so. A number of people knew about it outside the circle of actual plotters. They were not involved directly with it but knew about when it was going to happen. This means that these people were guilty of a criminal offense in that they knew of the act and made no attempt to report it.
Q Accessory before the fact.
M Yes. Without spending months here on the subject, why not let me give you a brief chronology of the day’s events from my own point of view? I have told you, quite frankly I believe, that I was taken by surprise and why. Now, let me tell you how I reacted when I knew and let my actions speak for themselves. On the 20th of July, I was in my office in Berlin trying to clarify a case we had been working on. This case had nothing to do with this matter. Reconciling the actual evidence with statements obtained by the Gestapo interrogators took up most of the morning and I was not in an especially pleasant humor when I got a telephone call from one of my staff that there had been some kind of a bomb explosion in the Fuhrer Headquarters. There was no mention of a plot and there seemed to be a question of a mine exploding. A few moments later...perhaps fifteen minutes or so...Kaltenbrunner came into my office, very worked up. There had been a bomb explosion in Hitler’s briefing room with him present and some were killed or wounded. Hitler was not seriously injured. Kaltenbrunner had been ordered by Himmler, who was nearby, to fly to East Prussia with experts to make an exact determination. I asked him, quite naturally, if this was some kind of a larger plot and he told me very abruptly that it was probably not and not to bother myself with it. His attitude was such as to annoy me very much. Kaltenbrunner was a nasty piece of work and I paid little attention to him in the office. He was treacherous, unstable and vicious in turn. I can recall an incident when he crossed Pohl.
Q Oswald Pohl for the record?
M Yes. Kaltenbrunner had harassed one of Pohl’s top people and had him confined to his house for some nonsense. Pohl who was very much in power with Himmler, ordered the man released, through Himmler. Kaltenbrunner was told to leave matters alone but as soon as Himmler and Pohl were out of Berlin, Kaltenbrunner struck again. This time, Pohl came personally to see Kaltenbrunner and made a terrible scene in Kaltenbrunner’s office. Someone rushed into my office and said that Pohl had struck Kaltenbrunner in the nose and knocked him out of his chair. Of course I went at once to enjoy the scene and then I saw Pohl storming out of the building and Kaltenbrunner running down the hall with a very red face and blood coming out of his nose. He was screaming that he wanted Pohl arrested, which was quite impossible, and I interviewed Kaltenbrunner who by now had calmed down. Especially after I told him that he would be in even worse trouble if Himmler found out that he had disobeyed a specific order to leave Pohl’s man alone. That’s the sort of person Kaltenbrunner was. In any case, I did not like his attitude and I had no intention of keeping out of the business. If there was some kind of a revolt, it was my duty to investigate it. Then about 17:00, I got a call direct from Himmler telling me that a certain Colonel of the General Staff, von Stauffenberg, was to be taken into custody, if possible, from his office in the Bendlerstrasse and questioned about his knowledge of the bomb. Himmler told me that Hitler had been lightly wounded but was fully functioning and that this matter had to be treated with absolute secrecy. He asked me if I had heard any news of this through the Gestapo offices and I told him that I had not. He stressed repeatedly that I was only to observe matters and take no actions other than the apprehension of Stauffenberg. I must use the utmost discretion when bringing him to my office and no one was to know who did not have to. Why one would be discreet about an assassin’s arrest eluded me and I asked Himmler directly. He became very annoyed and replied that there must be no friction with the army at that time. It struck me that Himmler was overly timid, once again, and that much stronger steps ought, at the least, be prepared in case this was not an isolated incident. Disregarding Himmler, I alerted all the Gestapo offices both in and out of the country to be on special lookout for any information about an attack on the Fuhrer. I did not say that there had been such an attack, however. I at once sent out Colonel Piffrader from my office to bring Stauffenberg back with orders to be absolutely discreet about the matter. No sooner had Piffrader left than I began to get reports of an army coup. I must have had a dozen calls in as many minutes plus teletypes. The entire office was in an uproar, I can tell you.
Q What happened then?
M I at once put in a call to Himmler but could not get through. I tried again when I had more information, perhaps ten minutes later and was again informed that Himmler was not available. I assumed he was in conference so I wished to speak to Kaltenbrunner. Then I was told that they had left the Fuhrer’s headquarters and had come back to Berlin. I immediately ascertained that neither man was in the RSHA headquarters and no one in Berlin knew where they were. That was the time that I called the commander of the SS Bodyguard at Lichterfelde barracks and put him on immediate alert. I told him quite bluntly that a Putsch was in the making and he was to alert all the Armed SS units he could and have them stand by for action. I had no trouble with him over this but almost immediately I had a call from Kaltenbrunner who screamed that I was not to involve myself in this and that General Juttner was in command of all Armed SS units by direct order of Himmler. I asked to speak with Himmler and Kaltenbrunner hung up the phone. At this point, considering all the information pouring in, I became highly suspicious of Himmler’s absence and his constant attempts to play this business down. I rang up Goebbels but could not get through. The next thing I did was to go and see Schellenberg in his office. I wanted to know if his people had any information about foreign comment on the attempt. As soon as I walked into his office, I knew at once that there was some funny business afoot. Schellenberg was obviously very frightened. He was on the telephone and immediately hung it up when I came in. Don’t forget, I am a trained police officer and Schellenberg was only a cheap lawyer and a schemer and time server. He was sweating and pulling at his collar so I asked him what was going on. He was very nervous...at best Schellenberg was tricky...and kept looking around the office and not at me. He said he had no knowledge of any foreign information but did say he had heard directly from Himmler who had ordered him not to involve himself in this. He suggested that this applied to me as well and told me, with some false bravado, that everything was being taken care of at the highest levels. I replied with some force that on security matters, I was the highest level. To get his reaction, I told him that I had personally alerted the Hitler Bodyguard and had also ordered the SS Watch unit to come to the RSHA. I told him that we were arming the building. At this he became really very frightened and said that I had no control over the Armed SS and was running a terrible risk in countering Himmler’s orders. I asked him where Himmler and Kaltenbrunner were. I said I knew they were in Berlin. Schellenberg began twisting around in his chair and said that he did not know where either man was. By now, I was entirely suspicious of these creatures and I gave orders that Schellenberg’s telephone calls should be monitored at once. The man assigned to this was one I trusted and he was to make recordings and bring the transcripts to me. And also if there was anything said of importance, I was to be told at once but no one else.
Q Did you suspect that Himmler might be up to something? Perhaps that he might be involved in the coup? M Oh yes, it did occur to me almost from the beginning but I had to be very careful. The next thing was that I was notified at about 1800 hours or perhaps a few minutes later, that the army’s Guard unit had surrounded the government quarter. The first call I made was to Goebbels. I had trouble with an aide but I finally got through. I told Goebbels some of what I knew but he interrupted me to let me know that he was in conference with the commander of the Berlin Guard and that everything was under control. I could tell that there were other people in the room so I asked him if he needed assistance or was under arrest. If so, we would send troops at once.
Q You mean SS troops?
M Of course. I had no power with the army after all. He told me under no circumstances should I call out the SS. This could lead to serious consequences and then he assured me that he was secure and that the matter was being cleared up. I asked Goebbels if he had heard from Himmler and he replied that he had not. I was unable to locate Himmler until the man in charge of monitoring Schellenberg’s telephone came and told me that he had overheard conversations between Himmler and Schellenberg that led him to think that Himmler was waiting to see what would happen. He mentioned the name “Koniggratz” to me and asked me if I knew what it meant. Aside from the battle in 1866, it meant nothing. He said Himmler had mentioned it several times but obviously was being very careful what he said. The transcripts were being prepared as quickly as possible but in the meantime, I told him to keep me right up to the line with any sort of information.
Q Did Himmler say anything indicating knowledge of the plot, say, before it happened?
M My man, who was very proficient and professional, believed that both men had some pre-knowledge but were waiting. Also I should say that Schellenberg spoke about me to Himmler in a very negative way. He said that I had alerted the Armed SS against Himmler’s orders and wondered if Himmler would give him the authority to have me put in protective custody. Such nonsense. Himmler apparently was frightened and told Schellenberg to keep as far away from me as he could and tell me nothing. Tell me what? I determined then to lay hands on this snake and squeeze him so I told one of the Armed SS officers in charge of the guard in the building to go at once and bring Schellenberg to my office. You should have seen that creature when he was brought in. He had experience in backstairs manipulating but no experience in interrogation at all. With different people, one used different approaches. With that one I was very severe. I motioned the officer out of the room, picked up a file of papers that happened to be on my desk and began to read through it. I looked up and right in his eyes. He started to bluster at me and said that he would advise Himmler of my actions. Then I asked him to explain his part in the “Koniggratz” business and at once all the fight went out of him. If he had been frightened before, he was terrified now. I took my service pistol out of the desk and laid it on the table. This genuinely horrified him and I think he felt I was going to shoot him.
Q Would you have?
M It would have depended on the circumstances entirely. At any rate, I didn’t point it at him. It was just to reinforce my severity if you follow me. He said he knew nothing about “Koniggratz” but might have heard the name. I asked him if he and Himmler had discussed it less than an hour ago. Then, of course, he went to pieces and began to weep. That’s when I found out about the entire business.
Q This is becoming extremely interesting. I have never heard the name before either.
M A really filthy business if you can imagine it. There was a plot in certain circles of the SS to remove Hitler and make Himmler the head of state. This plot was hatched by Gottlob Berger and some of the foreign SS people. All of their contacts were in the east...in Moscow. I told you once, Stalin’s major goal was to seize the German industrial base before your people could get it. This was the aim. Dissident elements and traitors in the military commands had been approached through Seydlitz and his people and Soviet agents in the Foreign Office. If Hitler were removed from office and Himmler put in place of him, a negotiated peace would follow. Himmler would be the head of state and the SS permitted to remain intact as an internal police force. The army would join the Soviets in resisting any western aggression in the Ruhr and everyone would be happy. How any person with the slightest knowledge of Stalin could believe this great heap of shit is quite beyond me. Stalin would certainly not permit Himmler a very long reign, the SS would be broken up and the army would be thoroughly bolshevized after Stalin had shot all of their aristocratic leaders. This would have happened for certain, believe me. And Himmler not only knew about this but gave it his tacit support. I had it all from Schellenberg who didn’t need any more prompting from me. He was now terrified that I would shoot him for treason and he had no idea where he stood until I told him that before I took any further action in his case, I would first have to speak with Himmler in person. At first, Schellenberg denied knowing where Himmler was but I soon convinced him to put through a call to Reichsheini and have him come at once to the Prince Albert building. Schellenberg then made a call on what he thought was a safe line. It was interesting to listen to him. If he had tried to warn Himmler, I would have found it necessary to use force on him but this proved to be unnecessary. Schellenberg always played to the side with the most power and at that moment, I had more than Himmler. I had knowledge and that was power. In due time, Himmler came, with a large entourage but without Kaltenbrunner. Himmler was obviously angry with me for interfering in his plans but as always, he was polite and courteous in front of his staff. I told him quietly that I had very important information for him. Matters of state. He hesitated and finally went into my office by himself. I had previously told the guard to keep everyone connected with Himmler out of the room. Schellenberg was locked in his office with no telephones. The guards in front of his door had orders to shoot him if he tried to escape. Fortunately for him, he did not. Now Himmler began to reproach me for activating the Armed SS in Berlin. He stressed that he was acting on Hitler’s orders and trying to prevent a clash between the Party and the army at all costs. He had prepared his speech carefully and alluded to high level decisions that, of course, he could not discuss. I pointed to a phone on my desk and told him that I had just spoken with Hitler personally and was aware of what was in progress. At that, Himmler became very pale and said nothing. Once I had control of the situation, I began to interrogate him but in a careful way to be sure. I said that the headquarters of the Reserve Army was obviously the center of the coup and it would be necessary to seize it at once. I told him that Piffrader had not returned after being sent to arrest Stauffenberg and also that I had spoken to Goebbels on the matter. I further said that the Watch units were now acting under Goebbels’ command and would soon occupy the Bendler block. This made the alert for the Armed SS not necessary unless I had evidence that the coup was spreading in Berlin. Himmler had no choice but to agree with me and I said that Juttner was more than capable of handling this business. I was acting only in a temporary capacity of course. Again, Himmler was very polite to me, expressing his thanks for my prompt actions. Himmler had no doubt that the Putsch was doomed. What else he knew, I was unaware of, but he certainly knew the Watch units were going into action and very obviously could see that the business was doomed. One would have thought that Himmler, as guardian of the state, would have been overjoyed that the business was coming to a quick end, and further, that one of his very own SS Generals, myself of course, had been instrumental in this end. This was not the case at all. He was conventionally polite but it was very plain that he was disappointed at the outcome. At that point, I said to him in a very cold but also correct way that I had uncovered the leadership of the bomb plot and I was deeply dismayed to discover that members of the SS were involved in it.
Q I should imagine that Himmler was as terrified as Schellenberg at that point. He had no way of knowing if you had actually been in touch with Hitler, had he?
M No. He assumed it. People assume a great deal sometimes to their disadvantage. He looked concerned and asked me very directly what I had uncovered. I only had to say “Koniggratz” and he began to twitch in the face. “I have never heard that name before,” he said. My response was to tell him that I had the entire story from Schellenberg less than an hour before. I reminded Himmler that I had once told him not to trust Schellenberg. He broke in to explain that of course he had heard of plots to replace Hitler or to make peace with this side or that but he had no sympathy with this sort of thing. He had, naturally, listened to what was said to learn what was going on. He had advised Hitler, he said, very smugly, what was going on and Hitler had approved his course of action. I then wanted to know why I, as head of internal counterespionage and security, had not been informed about this? Himmler rolled his eyes and said that these things had best be kept very secret. I would have been notified when Himmler had all the evidence in hand. Yes, I told him, and now I had evidence from others which certainly was not favorable to a number of people in the SS leadership. I mentioned Gottlob Berger, the head of the Main Office and Himmler’s chief supporter. Berger was the man most responsible for the organization and supply of the Armed SS. I think you know that the SS was outside the regular military and had to equip itself and secure recruits on its own. There were two men who were vital to Himmler’s Armed SS. One was Pohl who raised the cash and the other was Berger who raised troops...mostly from eastern Europe, initially from racial Germans and then later almost anyone who was warm. Very grotesque to find Moslems and Hindus in the SS. But Berger had Himmler’s ear, believe me. Berger himself had been a combat soldier in the first war and no one questioned his bravery, but in politics he was a real toady. He was Himmler’s spy, constantly running to him with tales, most of which he got from Schellenberg. Berger also constantly wrote letters to this or that official calling him to task about little breaches of etiquette. I told you about how obsessed Himmler was with the correct use of titles and so on. Berger was a nuisance to everyone...a genuine kisser of Himmler’s backside. But a very competent organizer in the end. I have some knowledge of Berger...
Q During or after the war?
M During the war. You see, a number of senior SS officials decided that Germany was likely to lose the war. They had their own empire to think about and eventually...about 1943...they decided that they would get rid of Hitler and put Himmler up as the head of state. They were connected, as I found out later, with all the small resistance groups as well as with the enemy, both in the east and west. They could cover their tracks because they had the police power and I must say with some embarrassment that I had no specific knowledge of this. I did, however, know about how they were going to finance their empire, even after the war. It was the “Bernhard” operation...
Q Counterfeit money...
M Exactly so. The faking of British and American currency had a double purpose. The first was to cause economic havoc with the economy of both countries and to get funds to pay for intelligence operations and put away something for themselves. I objected to it on these grounds. When I complained to Himmler earlier about the enrichment aspect of this, he told me to mind my own business. I wonder how much he had put away?
Q As much as you had?
M I am sure not. He was basically very moralistic and would have been horrified at taking as much as I did. But then, you see, I’m here and he’s off in the woods somewhere. It’s far better to be a live dog than a dead lion, don’t you think?
Q Please go on. Did you mention any of this to Hitler?
M No. There are matters best left unsaid in the end. When I mentioned Berger, Himmler became very agitated and said he would hear nothing about the true father of the Armed SS and his most reliable man.
He glared at me and said that he wished all senior SS personnel were as loyal. Then he told me that as I was an SS officer, I was under his personal command and he forbade me to pursue this matter any further. My reply was that while I was indeed an SS general, my agency, the Gestapo, was not an SS organization but was a state agency and Hitler was my superior in these matters. I referred to the expected call from the Headquarters and said that if Himmler had any questions about this, we could both speak to the Fuhrer about it. That pricked his boil and he began to shake his head. No, he said, we must not disturb him with this material which he was liable to misinterpret in his state of mind. Then Himmler asked me what I wanted from him. That, to my mind was a confirmation of my tentative conclusions. Of course, he said, no one was guilty of any treasonable offense and Hitler knew he was keeping in touch with the dissidents but it would be better to allow Hitler to run the war while he, Himmler, was his trusted shield on the home front. And, of course, at the front with his Armed SS who alone kept the enemy at bay.
My response was that Schellenberg must be kept away from sensitive material and that Himmler must rein Burger in and prevent either of them, and by implication Himmler himself, from fishing in troubled waters. There must be no more falls from grace. Himmler understood this very clearly and offered me a promotion in rank and suggested that I might like to replace Kaltenbrunner as head of the RSHA. I was never tempted although a promotion was not unattractive. I could see the end coming and I declined the RSHA but I did say that I must be given absolute control over the investigation of the plot otherwise the wrong people might find out what I had and there would be serious problems for the SS in general. Damaging facts, I said, and Himmler agreed. I did get such a position and I had no further problems with Himmler. I did root out Arthur Nebe, head of the Criminal Police who was involved. It took us five months but we got him and strung him up nice and proper. A terrible pity. Arthur was such an unqualified shit that we should have displayed him at the zoo. Berger went off to Slovakia to put down a revolt and Kaltenbrunner ran around in circles like a stupid dog chasing his tail. You did hang him in the end and he deserved it. Kaltenbrunner was a crazy, sadistic and brutal man who was one of the genuine murderers of Jews and others. It was a moment of rare pleasure for me...and others...when Pohl punched him in the face.
I wish I had a picture of Kaltenbrunner weeping with blood running out of his nose. Pohl, at least, never took part in the treason and self-enrichment. You ought to let him go after all.
Q I have no control over any of that and you know it. Schellenberg? He survived.
M And kept his office too. But every time I stopped in to say good morning to him, he used to turn white as flour. He certainly was on his best behavior, at least as long as he was around me. Skorzeny, who now works for you, told me that Schellenberg was an insect and ought to be stepped on. Large Otto is not a bad sort but hardly the master spy type. He will do what you tell him and aside from a great love of attention, is quite decent.
Q We can talk about Skorzeny later.
M I’m sure we will, And I hope you would keep your hands off of Schellenberg. If he ends up working for you, perhaps Otto and I could throw him out of a window. And you can add Globocnik to the bunch too.
By the way, Nebe liked Wirth who gassed everyone and he even ran one of the Combat Commands in the east and slaughtered many Jews. Just the man to make a resistance hero out of.
Q We all know about Schellenberg who as far as I know has no future at all with our agency. I agree with your evaluation of him. Intelligent but no character at all. I had to interview him once and I personally have no use for him.
M Very much like Warlimont and Berger. Always whispering, always scheming. A real poison dwarf.
Once creatures like that have been in power, they always hunger to get back into it again. Small men need large attentions. As for myself, I had far more power than any of them but it was real power. You understand that I did not appear on the stage at functions or carry around my own private photographers like Ribbentrop. The reality of power is far more important than its trappings. No one likes a policeman and no one wanted me at their pompous gatherings. I was content to spend my time working and doing the best I could while the other former gymnastic teachers or show riders strutted around in fancy uniforms. Heydrich was of the same cut but at least he had the intelligence to know what he was doing and the ability to succeed at what he did. He was a fine musician, a very good fencer and flew for the Luftwaffe during the
War. He was a difficult and very often strange person but he was not the same as the others. Kaltenbrunner was a brute and so was Bormann. Bormann was more intelligent and less erratic but another whisperer. I see the matter in this way: We were fighting a deadly war against terrible enemies. The idea was to win and to preserve the lives and property of our citizens. Moving into big castles, driving around in huge limousines and stealing everything in sight, like Frank, was certainly against my nature. If I had my way, all of them would be sent to the front for the Ascension detail.
Q What?
M Out in front of the lines to find the minefields. Preferably with their feet. And then up to Heaven with a great bang. You have no military sense of humor, do you?
Q Not in that sense.
M I remember once when Warlimont sent his General Muller to see me about my taking part in the killing of people in the rear areas of Russia. The bandits. An oily man and full of oblique statements. I could help the country by killing off these evil people. I might even get a promotion out of it if I and the Gestapo helped the army slaughter any troublemakers. The shovel got full very quickly with that one and I stood up and told him very directly what I thought about him and his plans. I told him that if he or his chief ever came around me again with such criminal nonsense, I would personally send him down to the cells. He could have a nice long visit with Father Phillip.* Later I got a letter from Himmler about this. General Muller was so frightened that he had to take sick leave and Warlimont was whining about how uncivilized I
Was. You know that the SS has had to take responsibility for the crimes of the army but I personally would have nothing to do with this. Arthur, on the other hand, Arthur the champion of German decency and freedom, ran off to the east and killed his share of Jews and peasants. When Himmler asked me, as a matter of form, I flatly refused and nothing more was ever said about it.
Q Did you ever get the call from Hitler on the 20th?
M No, of course not, but Himmler kept expecting it. That sort of thing keeps people on their toes and also keeps the bowels open.
Q I think you have more than answered my questions. Thank you.
World History
